My - Me - I/aide
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Message de jojo7139 posté le 05-09-2019 à 11:20:13 (S | E | F)
Hello
Pourriez-vous m'expliquer cette construction grammaticale s'il vous plait ?
There is no question of MY going there during this season
Il n'est pas question que j'y aille en cette saison
Pourquoi MY ? Et quand est-ce que nous pouvons rencontrer cette structure?
Thanks a lot for your answers
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Modifié par lucile83 le 05-09-2019 11:20
Message de jojo7139 posté le 05-09-2019 à 11:20:13 (S | E | F)
Hello
Pourriez-vous m'expliquer cette construction grammaticale s'il vous plait ?
There is no question of MY going there during this season
Il n'est pas question que j'y aille en cette saison
Pourquoi MY ? Et quand est-ce que nous pouvons rencontrer cette structure?
Thanks a lot for your answers
-------------------
Modifié par lucile83 le 05-09-2019 11:20
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 05-09-2019 à 11:51:28 (S | E)
Bonjour
Quand on dit : I like your swimming, swimming est un gérondif, c'est-à-dire un verbe transformé en nom grâce à ING et la phrase signifie : j'aime bien ta façon de nager.
si on dit : I like you swimming, à ce moment-là swimming est un participe présent, la phrase est un condensé de I like you when you are swimming et ça signifie : je t'aime bien quand tu es en train de nager.
Comparez :
They were interested in my writings. Ils se sont intéressés à mes écrits.
They were interested in my writing. Ils se sont intéressés à mon écriture / à ma façon d'écrire.
They were interested in me writing a story. ils se sont intéressés au fait que j'écrive une histoire,au fait que je me décide à prendre la plume. Ça les a interpellé que j'écrive une histoire.
Si on met un pronom personnel suivi d'un participe présent, on s’intéresse à la personne.
Si on met un adjectif possessif suivi d'un gérondif, on s'intéresse à son action.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de jojo7139, postée le 05-09-2019 à 15:49:32 (S | E)
Merci Gerondif mais c'est difficile pour moi de comprendre cette structure.
Est ce que c'est la même structure et donc la même traduction pour :
Do you mind MY smoking ? est ce que ça vous dérange que je fume? en fait "MA FUMEE" vous dérange t elle? adjectif possessif MY
Do you mind ME smoking? est ce que ça vous dérange que je sois en train de fumer? pronom complément ME
Et dans les propositions infinitives?
I want HIM to come je veux qu'il vienne ce ne sont que les pronoms compléments qui font office de 2 éme sujet ?
Pardon pour mes propos un peu confus... qui reflètent mes pensées..;
Et un grand merci pour votre aide attendue
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de jojo7139, postée le 05-09-2019 à 16:02:30 (S | E)
Encore un exemple trouvé :
There was no question of HIS (or HIM) forgetting about what happened.
Il n'était pas question qu'il oublie ce qui s'était passé.
Avec HIS FORGETTING cela voudrait dire " SON OUBLI" Action d'oublier
Avec HIM FORGETTING on s'interesse à LUI qui est entrain d'oublier
OULALA ce n'est pas clair
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 05-09-2019 à 16:06:59 (S | E)
Bonjour
Je ne peux que répéter ce que j'ai dit :
Si on met un pronom personnel suivi d'un participe présent, on s’intéresse à la personne.
Si on met un adjectif possessif suivi d'un gérondif, on s'intéresse à son action ou à l'objet.
Ces structures existent, ont un sens un peu différent et n'ont pas été faites que pour être traduites en français, là où on manque un peu d'outils pour les différencier. Donc, que les traductions ne reflètent pas ou mal la différence ne signifie pas qu'elle n'existe pas.
I don't mind your smoking signifie que sa fumée ne vous dérange pas. Vos poumons peuvent supporter l'inhalation de sa fumée.
What ! You're just out of chimiotherapy with only one lung left and you're smoking ? After all we've done to help you ? I really mind you smoking ! Là, la colère est dirigée contre le fumeur accroc, pas sa fumée. En gros, ça signifie comment oses-tu nous faire ça ?
I like your fighting : J'aime bien ta façon de te battre.
I don't like you fighting: Ça ne me plait pas que tu te battes, J'ai peur pour toi quand tu te bas, Je n'aime pas ce côté bagarreur que tu as.
Le proposition infinitive, c'est encore autre chose, on peut considérer que photographiquement les structures se ressemblent
I like him to be on time ressemble à I don't like him to arrive late, I don't like his arriving late et I don't like him arriving late (il m'agace quand il fait exprès d'arriver en retard)
There was no question of HIS (or HIM) forgetting about what happened.
Il n'était pas question qu'il oublie ce qui s'était passé.
Avec HIS FORGETTING cela voudrait dire " SON OUBLI" Action d'oublier
Avec HIM FORGETTING on s'interesse à LUI qui est entrain d'oublier
OULALA ce n'est pas clair. Ben si :
Nobody mentioned his forgetting to come : Personne n'a mentionné son absence .
Nobody mentioned HIM forgetting to come : Personne n'a mentionné qu'il avait oublié de venir, alors que ce comportement de sa part était bien la preuve qu'il n'aimait plus cette femme.
Personne n'a fait remarquer son comportement décalé
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de jojo7139, postée le 05-09-2019 à 17:09:25 (S | E)
Merci beaucoup Gerondif
Avec le temps j'espère pouvoir digérer ces structures.
Have un good afternoon
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 05-09-2019 à 20:07:38 (S | E)
Hello; the subject of a gerund can be in either the objective case or the possessive case. The possessive is more formal.
My smoking = Me smoking
Sometimes a noun can look like a gerund without being one, for example: writing (= the way one writes), painting (= painted image), understanding (= unwritten agreement). These nouns (like all non-gerund nouns) cannot be preceded by an objective-case pronoun.
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 06-09-2019 à 15:09:55 (S | E)
Bonjour
l'essentiel sera que vous sachiez utiliser les deux structures même si vous ne savez pas les analyser ou peinez à faire une différence de sens. Après tout, des tas de gens conduisent leur voiture sans la moindre notion de mécanique, un simple bon usage de l'outil étant suffisant pour rouler.
Cependant, il m'est difficile d'accepter l'analyse grammaticale de Traviskidd.
the subject of a gerund can be in either the objective case or the possessive case. The possessive is more formal. My smoking = Me smoking
Je vais citer de mémoire le cours de 1ère année de fac à Dijon de Mr Cherchi, prof de linguistique, en 1971 :
Un gérondif est un verbe transformé en nom grâce à ing et qui navigue entre le verbe et le nom. Il en accepte les prérogatives: article, adjectif possessif, adjectif qualificatif. Il peut être sujet (Swimming is good for you) ou complément (I like swimming) d'un verbe, et précédé d'une préposition (I am fond of swimming, I am fed up with waiting).
Exemple :
I like Picasso's/his beautiful pictures. nom commun précédé d'un génitif et d'un adjectif qualificatif.
I like Picasso's/his beautiful paintings. Un des cas où le gérondif va jusqu'au 100% nom. nom commun précédé d'un génitif et d'un adjectif qualificatif.
I like Picasso's elaborate painting. J'aime son style de peinture élaboré, gérondif tirant plus sur le verbe, précédé d'un génitif et d'un adjectif qualificatif.
Aucune grammaire n'acceptera que my ou me puissent être le "sujet" d'un gérondif.
I like Picasso painting, I like him painting, I like him when he is painting. Painting n'est pas un gérondif mais un participe présent.J'aime Picasso quand je le vois en pleine créativité, en train de peindre.
Dans un sens, I want him to come et I saw him painting partagent him comme "sujet" d'un infinitif ou d'un participe présent de verbe : I saw him as he was painting.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 06-09-2019 à 22:40:01 (S | E)
In agreement that good usage is more important than good analysis, I still think it worthwhile to understand what is going on "under the hood".
So here's what "painting" is in the following examples:
"I like Picasso's painting(s)." (full noun referring to a painted work.)
"I like Picasso's painting." (full noun referring to his style of painting)
"I like Picasso painting." (present participle used as an adjective; one could similarly say "I like Picasso happy.")
"I like Picasso('s) painting." (gerund, referring to the act of painting itself; one could similarly say "I like painting.")
"I saw Picasso painting." (present participle, the continuous form of an observative structure; one could also say "I saw Picasso paint.")
"We talked about Picasso('s) painting our house." (gerund, referring to the (proposed or completed) act of painting)
"Picasso('s) painting gets on my nerves." (gerund, referring to the (habitual) act of painting)
The gerund is the nominalization of the verb -- that is, the act -- itself. It does not (directly) refer to the way the act is conducted, nor to the result of the act.
To attach a subject to an infinitive, the subject should be put into the objective case (if a pronoun) and preceded by "for":
"For Picasso to paint or for Picasso not to paint -- that is the question."
However, in certain cases (the most well-known being "want"), "for" can be (and usually is) omitted:
"I want (for) Picasso to paint my house."
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 06-09-2019 à 23:04:40 (S | E)
Hello
Here is my "analysis"
"I like Picasso's paintings." (full noun referring to his painted works.)
"I like this painting by Picasso." for a singular work.
"I like Picasso's painting." (full noun referring to his style of painting) ok
"I like Picasso painting." (present participle used as an adjective; one could similarly say "I like Picasso happy.")
I disagree on this one I like Picasso when he is painting (not when he is cheating on his wife..), présent participle. I can't consider it as an adjective I like him to be happy is not the same as I like him when he is painting.
"I like Picasso's painting." (gerund, referring to the act of painting itself; one could similarly say "I like painting.") ok, but not without the apostrophe.
"I saw Picasso painting." (present participle, the continuous form of an observative structure; one could also say "I saw Picasso paint.")ok. My first inspection was on this structure: I saw him fight implies you saw the whole fight from beginning to end, I saw him fighting implies you saw the action after it started.
"We talked about Picasso('s) painting our house." (gerund, referring to the (proposed or completed) act of painting)
"Picasso('s) painting gets on my nerves." (gerund, referring to the (habitual) act of painting) ok
The gerund is the nominalization of the verb -- that is, the act -- itself. It does not (directly) refer to the way the act is conducted, nor to the result of the act.
To attach a subject to an infinitive, the subject should be put into the objective case (if a pronoun) and preceded by "for":
"For Picasso to paint or for Picasso not to paint -- that is the question."
However, in certain cases (the most well-known being "want"), "for" can be (and usually is) omitted:
"I want (for) Picasso to paint my house." I have rarely seen that structure, except maybe in old songs by Joan Baez for example.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 06-09-2019 à 23:16:58 (S | E)
Hello; while I was, and remain, confident in the analysis I gave in the preceding post, I noticed while writing it an interesting phenomenon that I can't yet quite explain.
Consider the following sentences:
1) Picasso incessantly painting my house gets on my nerves.
2) Picasso's incessantly painting my house gets on my nerves.
3) Picasso's incessant painting of my house gets on my nerves.
4) Picasso incessant painting of my house gets on my nerves.
Sentence 1) is valid; the adverb "incessantly" and direct object "my house" can be considered as being attached to the verb "paint" before it became a gerund.
Sentence 2) is likewise valid, but awkward.
Sentence 3) is valid, but now, it is as if the adjective "incessant" was added to the verb "paint" after it became a gerund (and likewise, the direct object must now be preceded by "of", as in, "The Taming of the Shrew.")
Sentence 4) is NOT valid. It appears that attaching an adjective to a gerund makes it a full noun, so that a subject can no longer be attached to it.
So now, the question is, what is the difference in the grammatical function of "painting" between sentences 1 (and 2) and 3 (and 4)? Clearly it is a gerund in all cases, but it seems to be more verbal in the first two sentences and more nominal in the last two.
Something I'll have to think about.
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 06-09-2019 à 23:36:31 (S | E)
Hello gerondif; just to quickly comment on your objections:
1) "I like Picasso happy" can also mean "I like Picasso when he is happy". (Indeed, I would sooner believe this interpretation than "I like Picasso to be happy.")
2) I didn't mean to imply that "I saw Picasso paint" and "I saw Picasso painting" were interchangeable, just that they are both observative structures (and therefore that "painting" retains its verbal character).
3) Normally "for" is used after "want" to imply that one person wants something good for another person. (For example, "I want for you to find a good wife and live happily ever after.") However, strictly speaking, it should be included whenever a subject is attached to an infinitive.
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 07-09-2019 à 00:01:29 (S | E)
Hello
I corrected a mistake in my last post, line 2.
Let's see your sentences:
1) Picasso incessantly painting my house gets on my nerves. ok, present participle.
2) Picasso's incessantly painting my house gets on my nerves. since incessantly is an adverb, it applies to a verb, so a present participle, so its subject shouldn't have 's, we should revert to nr 1.
3) Picasso's incessant painting of my house gets on my nerves.ok. gerund
4) Picasso incessant painting of my house gets on my nerves. wrong, Picasso is the subject of a present participle who can't accept an adjective like incessant.
off to bed, I'm diving tomorrow, 250km north from here, near Strasbourg !
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de icare29, postée le 08-09-2019 à 12:09:24 (S | E)
Hello .
la question de départ était quelque peu anodine . la réponse est un cours magistral de grammaire par deux grands spécialistes de la langue anglaise .
j'en suis resté scotché sur ma chaise ....
Bravo à tous
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de lucile83, postée le 08-09-2019 à 15:38:00 (S | E)
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 09-09-2019 à 15:32:00 (S | E)
Bonjour
Merci mais je ne suis qu'un tout petit par rapport à Mr Cherchi que j'avais eu comme prof de phonétique en 1971 en 1ère année de fac à Dijon. J'ai regretté ensuite de n'avoir pas fait linguistique avec lui...
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 09-09-2019 à 18:05:21 (S | E)
Hello gerondif; 200km is a long way to dive! Maybe you meant "drive"?
You say that in "Picasso incessantly painting my house gets on my nerves" the word "painting" is a present participle. If by that you mean that it is functioning as a verb, then this is false; it is in fact the subject of the verb "gets". One could simply say "Painting gets on my nerves." Or "Incessant painting gets on my nerves." Or "Incessantly painting gets on my nerves." All these are possible, and in all these cases, thee -ing form of the verb "paint" functions as a noun.
Perhaps the question is one of terminology. What is a participle? Does a word have to be used as a verb to be a verbal participle? Not necessarily. For example, in "the written letter", the past participle of "write" is used as an adjective. So if we follow this logic, the -ing form of a verb is always a present participle, whether it is used to form a verbal tense (say, the present continuous) or a gerund or whatever else. (The only exception is when the word is used to refer to something other than (albeit probably related to) the act itself, for example "I like your cooking", where "cooking" refers to the results of the cooking (yummy food), or perhaps the manner of cooking, but not to the act of cooking itself.)
So I would say that the definition of "gerund" is a present participle of a verb used as a noun referring to the act that the verb represents. In that case, "Picasso incessantly painting the house" and "Picasso's incessant painting of the house" both contain "painting" used as a gerund. The question remaining for me is what term(s) to use to describe the difference between these two uses of the gerund, one more "verbal" (and thus accepting of an adverb), and one more "nominal" (and thus accepting of an adjective).
To icare29: I'm hardly a specialist in English (if I were, I would probably know the answer to my question
). I am, however, a native speaker who likes to analyze languages, including my own, and who is always delighted to discover something new.See you.
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Modifié par traviskidd le 09-09-2019 18:14
Notice that I used the present participle of "accept" as an adjective.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de willy, postée le 10-09-2019 à 17:00:02 (S | E)
Hello,
"in all these cases, the -ing form of the verb "paint" functions as a noun."
"Painting my house" : "painting" can't possibly be a noun ; it is a verb followed by the direct object "my house".
The subject of the verb "gets" is "Picasso incessantly painting my house".
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 11-09-2019 à 16:22:41 (S | E)
Hello willy,
It is true that the full subject is "Picasso incessantly painting my house", but ultimately, it is the word "painting" that the verb "gets" is conjugated in accordance with. One can just as easily say "Painting gets on my nerves". "Painting" is a gerund, a verb transformed into a noun. Like any verb, it can have its own subject ("Picasso"), and (perhaps) direct object ("my house"); and like any noun, it can be the subject of another verb ("gets").
More interesting to me is the fact that, once the gerund takes an adjective, it can no longer be treated as a verb. So "Picasso incessant painting" is wrong. In other words, "incessantly painting" is a gerund phrase, but "incessant painting" is not, even though "painting" is a gerund in both cases!
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 11-09-2019 à 17:10:19 (S | E)
Hello again; I have found the answer to my question!
In "the painting of the house", "painting" is what is known (although not very well
) as a nominal gerund.In "painting the house", "painting" is used as a sentential gerund.
Nominal gerunds can take adjectives but not adverbs, and can take subjects only in the possessive case: "Picasso's incessant painting".
Sentential gerunds can take adverbs but not adjectives, and their subjects can be in either the objective (less formal) or possessive (more formal) case: "Picasso('s) incessantly painting".
See this link: Lien internet
(Note however that it is rather technical.)
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 11-09-2019 à 23:25:02 (S | E)
Hello
Sorry about the delay, my phone line went dead for two days.
It looks like we'll never agree about what I perceive as a present participle with a subject and sometimes an adverb and what that strange grammar calls NP gerunds.
As far as I am concerned, here is how I view the examples given :
(304)...the proving of the theorem.... (det ger with article) ok
(305)* ...the proving the theorem.... (NP ger with article) wrong for me, the cannot be used in front of a verb, I would accept "him proving"
(306)John's rapid writing of the book.... (det ger with Adj) ok
(307)* John's rapid writing the book.... (NP ger with Adj) wrong for me, if writing is leaning towards a noun, of is missing, John's rapid writing of the book or John writing the book rapidly
(308)* John's having written of the book.... (det ger with aspect) I've never seen anything like this ! having written being a verb can't be followed by of I would have said : John's past writing of the book, John's former writing of the book
(309)John having written the book.... (NP ger with aspect) ok
(310)* His writing of the book rapidly.... (det ger with Adverb) wrong for me, writing leaning towards the noun because of the "of" can't bear an adverb like rapidly
(311)
His writing the book rapidly.... (NP ger with Adverb) can exist with a gerund leaning towards the verb.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 12-09-2019 à 00:50:20 (S | E)
Hello gerondif; I believe the examples preceded by an asterisk (*) are considered wrong by the site. (They certainly are to me.)
By the way, what exactly do you consider to be a present participle? For me it's any form of the verb that ends in -ing and which refers to the act itself (rather than, say, the way the act is done or the results thereof.)
Present participles have several uses, including:
-Formation of the continuous aspect ("I am cooking." "She would never have been cooking.")
-Gerunds ("I like cooking hamburgers.")
-Adjectival or adverbial phrases ("You can make a lot of money (by) cooking hamburgers." "Having been cooking all day, I was finally able to take a rest!")
Not all words that resemble present participles actually are, for example, in the word "ending", the ending -ing appears to be attached to the verb "end", but "ending" is (usually, and certainly in this sentence) not a present participle (and therefore not a gerund).
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 12-09-2019 à 10:34:15 (S | E)
Hello
That's where we differ. An ING form Can be a present participle or a gerund, I will never say that a present participle can become a gerund.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de traviskidd, postée le 12-09-2019 à 18:33:47 (S | E)
Hello gerondif. After a quick Internet search, it appears that most, but not all, grammar sites agree with you that a present participle is different from a gerund.
For me, a participle is a form of a verb, independent of how it is used (so long as it refers to the act itself). As it turns out, all present participles are regular in English; they all are formed by adding -ing to the end of the verb. If, however, we imagined an irregular present participle (say: run -> runnung), then I would argue that this form would be used as the gerund as well. (I am runnung, I like runnung). This would be similar to how it works for past participles. (I have bought the apples, The apples have been bought.) So for me, the present participle is simply the -ing form of the verb, and thus gerunds are present participles.
Here is an interesting example (from a site that disagrees with me):
Consider this sentence:
Visiting relatives can be boring.
If you read the sentence to mean that the relatives who visit your house are boring, then "visiting" is a present participle. In this case, the subject of the sentence is "relatives" and "visiting" is an adjective describing the relatives.
If you read the sentence to mean that the activity of going to visit your relatives is boring, then "visiting" is a gerund. In this case, the subject of the sentence is "visiting" (as a gerund) and "relatives" is the object of the gerund.
(from Lien internet
)
See you.
Réponse : My - Me - I/aide de gerondif, postée le 13-09-2019 à 08:58:21 (S | E)
Hello
Visiting relatives can be boring. Yes, visiting can be a present participle used as an adjective or a gerund. That's what I mean when I say that an ing form can be either a présent participle or a gerund (or a noun).
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