Difficult/october

Difficult/october
Message de asafie posté le 14-10-2017 à 18:22:14 (S | E | F)
Bonjour,
oui encore une question de phonétique mais que voulez-vous c’est dur même avec un manuel…
*pourriez-vous s’il vous m’expliquer pourquoi difficult /ˈdɪfɪkəlt/ a une accentuation 100 alors que comme cataract /ˈkætərækt/ le mot se termine par voyelle consonne consonne, pourtant ce dernier s’accentue 102…
La règle c’est normalement: le mot qui se termine par VCC prend un accent et il ne devrait pas y avoir de schwa…
*également October /ɒkˈtəʊbə/ a un stress pattern 10 ce qui répond bien à la règle, pourtant la première syllabe comporte une voyelle courte et non une réduction vocalique comme reluctant /rɪˈlʌktənt/ ce que je ne comprends pas…
Votre aide me serait très précieuse parce que ça me reste dans la tête tout le temps.

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Modifié par lucile83 le 14-10-2017 18:39

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Réponse : Difficult/october de sherry48, postée le 14-10-2017 à 21:19:21 (S | E)
Hello asafie.
Think of a rule as a generality and don't try to make all words fit the rules.
We stress the first syllable more than any other syllable, as we do for difficult.
Note which syllable contains VCC. For example, with 2 consonants at the end of the first syllable, as in October, the 2 consonants indicate where to divide the syllables, (Oc-TO-ber) and the same goes for the end of the second syllable (re-LUC-tant).
Take a look at the 3-syllable words in the list on this site Lien internet
. I counted 32 words, and I think there were 20 which stress the first syllable. Examine the words which stress the second syllable. Do you notice anything which many have in common? Here's a hint on this link Lien internet
.
I'm not sure if I answered all your questions, but if you have more questions, I can try! Sherry

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Réponse : Difficult/october de asafie, postée le 14-10-2017 à 21:44:45 (S | E)
Hi Sherry! The problem with my second question is that October fits a rule but I don’t understand why there’s a « o » at the very beginning of the transcription because there’s no stress so it should be a schwa

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Réponse : Difficult/october de sherry48, postée le 14-10-2017 à 21:49:34 (S | E)
Hello again.
Are you saying that Oct in October is an example of VCC? It isn't really, since it's VC, then CVC...
Vowels are often pronounced as a schwa, but not always

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Réponse : Difficult/october de asafie, postée le 14-10-2017 à 22:14:20 (S | E)
No actually I’m saying that October, like reluctant, fits the 10 rule (the latter says that if a word ends up with a short vowel plus its penultimate vowel is a tense one or is followed by more than one consonant its stress pattern is 10), reluctant is a 010 (so it’s ok) but October is 210 and I don’t understand why
Thank you for your help

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Réponse : Difficult/october de here4u, postée le 15-10-2017 à 00:07:42 (S | E)
Hello asafie !
OcTOber = 010 ; just as reLUCtant:
Lien internet
Lien internet

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Réponse : Difficult/october de asafie, postée le 15-10-2017 à 10:19:54 (S | E)
Hi!
So the « o » at the beginning of the word is considered as a vocalic reduction ? Because it’s under 0

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Réponse : Difficult/october de lucile83, postée le 15-10-2017 à 10:36:09 (S | E)
Hello,
Yes, it's a vowel reduction. The first syllable is unstressed. Lien internet

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Réponse : Difficult/october de asafie, postée le 15-10-2017 à 15:26:14 (S | E)
Thank you very much
But what about the word difficult then ?
Thanks again

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Réponse : Difficult/october de lucile83, postée le 15-10-2017 à 16:24:18 (S | E)
Hello
The word 'difficult' is 100. >> Lien internet

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Réponse : Difficult/october de asafie, postée le 15-10-2017 à 16:39:51 (S | E)
Yeap I know but why ? Its last syllable is VCC so it should be a 102 just like cataract, right ? The rule that I mentioned above is ‘‘ La règle c’est normalement: le mot qui se termine par VCC prend un accent ’’
Thanks

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Réponse : Difficult/october de traviskidd, postée le 15-10-2017 à 17:41:21 (S | E)
Hello, I think the stress patterns of "difficult" and "cataract" are the same. I would say they both are (1 0 0), but a case can be made for (1 2 0), where the middle syllable serves as a transition. (By the way this is very interesting math that says 1 > 2 > 3 > ... > 0 )

See you.

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Réponse : Difficult/october de traviskidd, postée le 15-10-2017 à 18:31:59 (S | E)
I think I can see the problem here. We have to carefully define what we mean by "secondary stress". If only a schwa can be unstressed, then the "O" of October cannot be unstressed, because it isn't a schwa, and therefore "October" must be (2 1 0), and similarly "cataract" must be (1 0 2). However, in my mind, "Oc-" and "-act" are no more stressed than "-ber" and "-a-" respectively. Schwas are always unstressed, but in my opinion a vowel can be unstressed without being "schwaified".

A related eternal question: How do you spell "worship(p)ing"?

See you.

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